Those extra options give. Latest HOI4 province summary spreadsheet. Not a huge savings but one that adds up. The Finnish coastal defence ship Väinämöinen, one of the last examples of the type. It also can have excellent spotting and thus seems ideal for zones like the the mid Atlantic gap. ago. I recently watched Hammotimes beginner series and in his Navy video he mentions a "sub spam" method in which you produce a load of T1 subs and leave them on convoy raiding with auto repair etc. Submarines usually get very little speed debuffs, so they usually have a advantage in that regard. Historically they held a medium cruiser battery, however in hoi4 they do not. I'm going to assume you already knew that. No they are larger submarines hence the option to mount more stuff and America and France also get them. But ships to use would be destroyers, and maybe 1-2 LC if you can spare them (eg if you are england/usa/japan). Heavy 2s with upgraded armor give 40+ armor to each division with just one tank battalion so they block most casual piercing. WARNING: This Cruiser receives a -25% Attack/Defense and Movement in Shallow Waters. Destroyers have torpedoes 20% weaker than Light Cruisers and 1/3 the strength of Submarines. 1940 cruiser cruiser armor dual-purpose secondary battery depth charge tech (doesn't need to be too advanced) some torpedoes (doesn't need to be too advanced either) advanced fire control system (from electronics) It's around year 1940, you should have some new submarines raiding the enemy. Light gun modules can be applied starting at Tier 2, Medium and Heavy gun modules starting at Tier 3. Do not forget to set them to "not engage". The mod includes a wide range of ship types, including minelayers, escort destroyers, light carriers, and cruiser submarines. Two. Speaking of the variant system, why the fuck do we even have separate heavy/light cruiser and superheavy battleship techs if that is the perfect use case for this feature! Urgh. On the right side of the Ship Designer, you will see the stats for the designed ship and any. g. Light gun modules can be applied starting at Tier 2, Medium and Heavy gun modules starting at Tier 3. -Torpedo attack is extremely affected by the speed stat, so fast destroyers have a very low chance of getting hit. As someone with 600 hours in HOI4 and a good understandung of the navy, dont bother. FrontierJustice- • 3 yr. But if you can reach them with bombers, bombers are better since theres nothing convoys can do about it. From what i have gathered, the last one is really good, but there is hardly any information or discussion on the other two, AT least i cant find any. Not a huge savings but one that adds up. The Cruiser Submarines are subs that can be used by Japanese and French players from the start of the game or by unlocking it via the German Focus Tree or American Focus Tree. Then justify the US immediately. Escort Light Cruiser- Should be used in escort task forces in a 1:3 ratio with DDs. . This mod adds Cruiser Submarine Surcouf to the Game. Heavy Cruiser Light Attack spam is the current naval meta, especially in Multi-player. Each class has different usage areas, advantages, and disadvantages. I tried concentrating my fleet into a hunter/killer set up with early ships as patrols and my Heavies and 1936 cruiser/destroyers to destroy opposition, but it still isn't enough to challenge the British Navy in. My little group of four (well in the picture the 5th was just created) light cruisers is decimating the entire US Navy, Royal Navy, and Canadian Navy virtually alone with no airpower. It includes historical classes that were completed as well as those that only made it to the design phase. I also just throw in any extra ship I have to give myself a little extra firepower in my fleets. His original speed is 36 by the way but doing mission on the baltic made it go down to around 11. Hi all, I recently dived into HOI4 finally - my HOI gaming background comes mostly from the HOI1 and HO2 back in the day (I skipped HOI3 entirely, just. But as tech scales up, that gap widens. todays hoi4 man the guns guide is covering submarines. Created by [DEV] BeeMan. How to Convoy Raid effectively. But you can't hit Screens with submarines. frothy_diarrhea • 1 yr. ULTIMATE Submarine META PRO Guide - HOI4 Meta Navy Guide00:00 Subs!00:23 Why subs are broken01:36 Lets make a submarine04:09 Getting. with japan just build 100 cruiser submarines and rest biuld that torpedo cruisers that u can give it from ur focus. Submarines. If you don't have fast CLs, then use pure destroyers. They are hard for AI to detect, they have cheap production cost, long range, decent attack. Naval support technology. This page was last edited on 7 May 2017, at 15:55. 370K subscribers in the hoi4 community. With no armor and max speed, your ships are hard to hit, reducing losses (cruiser armor sucks anyway). Go to hoi4 r/hoi4. Scout planes/Radar/Scout planes. My goal in this mod is to make the most changes and make HOI4 more like neptunia by anding nep and crew to it. I have NEVER cheated in HOI4 and . To this day i never built anything bigger than a light cruiser, it just takes incredibly long time. Meta if you're a minor or have no naval production in the beginning = submarine and naval bomber spam. ago. Jump to latest Follow Reply. In hoi4, naval trade is more expensive, because you need convoys, while for land you need nothing. Depth charges: 1. Base refit cost for an early cruiser with 1x AA and lvl 1 armor is 1800*0. Swiftly find equipment tags to use with console commands such as add_equipment in Hearts of Iron IV. Battleships became the main form of capital ship after sailing vessels fell out of use, and remained so up to World War II. and also naval invade from an island in the middle of the pacific. If they start responding with Heavy Cruiser patrols (because the AI isn't THAT stupid. If the enemy is utilizing naval bombers, it would be prudent to include anti-air destroyers or light cruisers. Only difference is that you're using a Heavy gun now meaning the ship now faces a penalty in. or more specificly all the ways to counter submarines in hearts of iron 4 man the guns. Cruiser submarines. Pacific Fleet. As well as Anechoic Tiles, Radar/Snorcal Combination, and unlocking Anti-Air for submarines. Naval technology. While most modules. Cruiser Submarines (SSC) (very large, long-range submarines with scout plane. 4xCruiser Hull: 2. If your goal is to go after warships by setting aggressive to max, then snorkel will allow your subs to stay in the fight longer and sink more enemy warships. 1. The cruiser submarine was a massive submarine that was designed to stay at sea for extended periods of time far from the base. HOI4 Tools SGr - Save Game Recorder - records, compresses, and archives autosave files in realtime, no game. The conference started. 0kn has a hit. Easy, cheap, and effective. The Soviet Union (officially “Union of Soviet Socialist Republics” or “USSR”) is a major country and the leader of the Comintern faction. Wiki Beginner Guide. Declare war, then land the. Players are able to pick hulls and outfit them with various modules, such as: engines, supporting systems and weapons. Reason the submarine have the advantage. ago. Snorkel for survivability, radar for efficiency. 5 Sub with extended range, some unique. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Hearts of Iron IV by…Surcouf had the largest guns of any cruiser submarine. the Surcouf class). The higher it is, the higher the chance a submarine will get revealed. If screening ever hits 90% or less the torpedo cruisers will stomp stuff. A major like those mentioned before would use scouts of 10destroyers 2LC while the remaining des/lc would remain with your strike fleet to screen. Set you sub fleet to engage at high risk, medium repair priority and enable automatic split off. Also add monitors!! (Destroyers with a heavy battery)Got back into HOI4 recently and this time around i'm really invested in learning and pushing for my first world conquest/win. 500 hours! (Still don’t understand navy) The easiest, low calorie micro way is spamming submarines. ULTIMATE Submarine META PRO Guide - HOI4 Meta Navy Guide00:00 Subs!00:23 Why subs are broken01:36 Lets make a submarine04:09 Getting started07:44 Trade Inter. Likewise the same slot determines whether it's a light cruiser or a heavy cruiser with your cruiser hulls. Battleship: provinces, or alternate names of Japan. The development of the torpedo gave rise to the Jeune École doctrine, which held that small warships armed with. I don't really think they are worth using. The convoy escort gives +30% escort efficiency, which is pretty good because it lowers the number of escort ships required, and +20% sub detection for DDs. You can only kill submarines by spotting them first! The best way to kill Submarines (especially 1940 Submarines) is to use a Spotting Cruiser as a spotting task force, in combination with Depth-charge Destroyers. And capital ships are battleships? IIRC there is an icon on the navy research screen, differentiating capital. Minor: Submarine is the safe choice, Light Cruiser with lots of Light attack might work. Keeping extra AA isn't bad either. The cruiser submarine was a massive submarine that was designed to stay at sea for extended periods of time far from the base. I found a few uses earlyer. The destroyer patrols that kill subs get absolutely manhandled by Cruisers. Their survivability is in their speed. Screens are destoyers and light cruisers which protect your capital ships from submarines and other screen ships. The aircraft facilities take up cruiser slots that could be used for more firepower. The AI has no problem damaging or sinking my older subs, but the 1940 submarines are barely getting detected or shot at. and this is actually a good sub since you can make hundreds of them. Heavy cruisers also have the speed which heavier ships lack, making them far better and finding and killing enemy ships. The light cruiser guns shred enemy screens, rendering enemy capital ships vulnerable. It's the little C2 node to the wolfpack. Description:Adds Light, Medium, and Heavy gun modules for Submarines. Created by dineth. Light Cruiser surface attack could be increase to be the same as the Heavy Cruiser, it would still be pretty poor because of its low piercing value but it would. While investigating facts about Submarines Cruisers and Hoi4 Cruiser Submarines, I found out little known, but curios details like:. The larger capital ships are going to crush any heavy cruisers, so armor seems like a waste of IC to me. Since they are really slow. v1. Originally posted by Random: the easiest and most effective way to wipe out subs on mass is to setup about 4 groups of 10-15 destroyers with at least 2 secondary gun components setup to depth charges (pretty much every destroyer that isn't a minelayer or minesweeper should have this) with your highest available radar + sonar, and set them to. Hoi4 Naval Guide: Classes. Everywhere else you can just use paratroopers instead. A side effect btw is that you save fuel. Only certain nations even get access to cruiser subs, they are one of the 'hidden' techs. Europe 1800 start date. If you are a minor with middling naval production: heavy cruisers with maximum light attack (1 medium battery, rest light batteries) with a mix. Especially given, as you mentioned, the historical production level of 3 submarines for a total airfleet of 9 M6A1 Seirans, themselves subpar aircraft with a max payload of 1 Type 91 torpedo or 2x 250lb bombs. In contrast, no armor is free and keeps the ship faster, which helps it avoid heavy guns and torpedoes. Submarines Cruiser facts. These modules can be unlocked in decision menu. By having two cruisers you can always lose one which will be replaced if you have reserves. I would say subs are the most OP. Specialized patrol fleets can massively increase the effectiveness of wolf packs. Nope besides giving a extra slot if you get them early enough. Search: Hoi4 Cruiser Submarine. It can’t really stop battleship guns, it’s expensive to build and takes a long time, and it slows the ship down (making it more vulnerable to heavy guns and torpedoes). In HOI4, light cruisers destroy everything on the water, and aircraft destroy everything period (land, water, whatever). A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Hearts of Iron IV by Paradox Development Studio. Long range submarine patrols, and similar mine laying operations are my first two choices. Carriers make big ship go boom. The Heavy Cruiser in Hearts of Iron 4 has the same hull as the Light Cruiser, but has access to heavier weaponry, making it more classified to become a capital ship instead of a screen ship. So i use the heavy gun, superstructure, sloped armor, welded armor etc. Along with an event for ether France to give them back their Medium Submarine Gun and Cruiser Submarine. Credit: Paradox Interactive. While most. The issue with making bigger patrols, ones designed to engage, is that they end up weakening the strike fleet by x ships, and they get whooped by enemy strike fleets. Greece-16 Ships (1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Light Cruiser, 8 Destroyers, 6 Subs) Turkey-14 Ships (1 Battlecruiser, 2 Light Cruiser, 6 Destroyers, 5 Submarines) Note that Turkey is the only nation from the start that has access to the Bosphorus Strait, letting them into both the Black Sea and the Mediterranean. Now it's time to design your LIGHT CRUISER. You can put 2 floatplanes and a radar on it. Scout planes don't even boost recon. Battery and 2 or 3 Second battery, Armor lv1 or lv2, Max engine. I lke sending 2 fleets of DDs and SSs (15-30 of each), riding shotgun for a nasty fleet of heavies (2-3 CVs, 3. Along with getting a research speed boost and some dockyards, the focus gives Germany access to a “Cruiser Submarine. They have a tendency to flee instantly when facing enemy warships and will be pretty much massacred by destroyers and light cruisers. It only adds to them so the AI experience should remain unchanged. ship : screens) Of course I use BC and/or BB. Destroyers are best at hunting submarines followed by light cruisers due to their high sub detection ability and use of depth charges. Long explanation : 3 game mechanics will play together to allow you to do better naval invasions : 1st : Naval invasion plans will prepare even though there are no divisions assigned to them but won't show it in the UI. So Submarines are the easy way to go. It is rich in both natural and human resources and has decent technology. What Are Submarines Used For Hoi4? Snorkel for subs, radars for cruiser submarines. Front 1. Set the fleet to convoy raid mission with: split. The weaknesses are enemy airpower, good ASW cruisers, or destroyer spam (but destroyers only deter and not kill). Description:Adds modules for Battleships, Cruisers, and Submarines allowing them to use carrier aircraft. This keeps fleet positioning high for the engagement. No, torpedoes are still useless, and dumb. If you start the game with a navy, stack all the subs in one navy and throw the rest of your navy in reserve. Command points are automatically used for these missions and and costs permanent 0. The engine keeps them fast. (can construct avg 8-12/year). If the enemy battle-line and carrier group are insufficiently screened from torpedoes, the. HOI4 Special: Subs with snorkels, lots of Naval bombers. Those extra options give. Step 3 – Stage the War. A place to share content, ask questions and/or talk about the grand strategy game Hearts of Iron IV by Paradox Development Studio. Select multiple ships, refit and it lets you pick any available options. Battlecruisers are slightly weaker than a battleship, but make up for it with increased speed. Heavy Cruisers in HOI4. 0 coins. 8x. Description: Adds modules for Battleships, Cruisers, and Submarines allowing them to use carrier aircraft. Light cruisers are the best type for spotting fleets. Whenever possible, I find each active sea zone should have: a strike force of suitable size, a patrol squadron of 5-6 DDs and a submarine squadron of 10 subs. These modules can be unlocked in decision menu. . battery to floatplane), the cost is simply the cost of the new module . Features-Over 1200 new modules for the ship designer,. As with all content about what's "meta" in the game, this reflects my own opinion, based on experience and some math to get the facts straight. -Torpedoes are affected by screening. -ASW is “anti-submarine warfare” meaning convoy escort -DD is destroyer -CL is light cruiser -CA is heavy cruiser -BC is battlecruiser -BB is battleshipp -CV is carrier And then any number after the ship is what “era” of ship so DD2 is a 1936 destroyer, etc. 3+1 main fleets: Japanese home defense fleet. 10. Cruiser level armour only works against light attack, which as long as there is 1 screen between your heavy cruiser and the enemy, they are not going to get shot by. The higher it is, the higher the chance a submarine will get revealed. Used for balance. Cruiser I: 0: 0: 1: 0: 2x Light Cruiser Battery II, Anti-Air I, Fire Control 0, Cruiser Armor I, Torpedo Launcher I, Floatplane Catapult I CA: Veinticinco de Mayo Class: Early Cruiser: Cruiser I: 2: 0: 2: 0: Medium Cruiser Battery I, Anti-Air I, Fire Control 0, Cruiser Armor I, Secondary Battery I, Torpedo Launcher I, Floatplane Catapult I CA. HOI4 console commands list. Your strike fleet should be comprised of light attack heavy cruisers (one heavy cruiser gun, many light cruiser guns, radar/fire control/engine/AA, no armor), roach destroyers (maximum cheapness, one gun1, max engine), and a smaller number. RELEASED SGc - Save Game Converter - converts save games to XML format for easy viewing in freeware XML viewers. Members Online • goetterraserei. Losing 25 torpedo destroyers for killing 2 carrier and 4 heavy cruiser may well worth it. lillelur • 1 yr. 3xDestroyer Hull: 1xSubmarine Hull: 0. Submarines are broken now for mechanical and statistical reasons. True. There are 2 chassis frames for Submarine: The standard 4 tech unlocks and the sexiest of Submarines: the Cruiser Submarine. See, big ships are nice and all but you can not replace them. For just 170 cost, that is a steal on a BB. Set you sub fleet to engage at high risk, medium repair priority and enable automatic split off. 366K subscribers in the hoi4 community. 6xCarrier Hull: 2. *Submarines* 40 Organization 50% Surface Detection 20% Raiding Coordination *Global Bonuses*. I find the cruiser submarine available via "U-boat effort" focus to be quite good at enforcing a blockade sufficiently far from Britain. Take your torpedo I's to torpedo II, upgrade light gun 1 to 2 and so on. This article has the purpose to provide an overview of the Naval Units present in Kaiserreich as well as their statistics. I recently watched Hammotimes beginner series and in his Navy video he mentions a "sub spam" method in which you produce a load of T1 subs and leave them on convoy raiding with auto repair etc. Since this seems like a human. Italy also has several ships under construction. The 1940 and 1944 submarine templates have the exact same and better range as the Cruiser submarines and better overall stats as well. Get a Tip of the spear spirit and setup a 20 divisions naval invasion of North-West US. You could add some mot artillery or rocket to increase the soft attack. Destroyers are about 1/3 the Ainti-Air strength of a Light Cruiser, which is the most cost-effective ship for AA (outside of a carrier with fighters). Destroyers are about 1/3 the Ainti-Air strength of a Light Cruiser, which is the most cost-effective ship for AA (outside of a carrier with fighters). Establishment of ship naming conventions 1905. For building up wider Naval superiority Destroyers, Light Cruisers and a few carriers per fleet (with 60/40 split towards Naval Bombers) will wreck most AI fleets. -New Cruiser Submarine Ship type for subs with 8+ inch guns. dasaard200 Dec 24, 2016 @ 12:42am. Surface visibility: 10. Here is a example of how a Cruiser can be slowed down quite a bit. I found a few uses earlyer. Service manpower: 325. CV) can attack SS. The only 1936 naval tech that Italy possesses is the Caio Duilio battleship, though it does possess upgraded versions of the 1922 heavy cruiser, light cruiser, destroyer, and submarine. Found a. ago. Battleships. Subs are the best scouts, best convoy raiders, and best minelayers. People have built ONLY torpedo cruisers and destroyed larger mixed fleets but adding a few battleships is still a good idea. For example, you cannot create a cruiser without a fire control system or a submarine without torpedoes. % cost increase of AA and armor affects this cost as well. These modules can be unlocked in decision menu. You need Radar 3 or 4 to get the same sort of spotting you can get out of a single advanced catapult, but even then you can mount two such catapults and a radar on a cruiser sub. Carriers: Carriers were the gods of the sea irl in WW2, but in Hoi4, not so much, at least not until later in the game. Heavy cruisers are the best ship in the game. It severely averages up the detection of the snorkel submarines. Advertisement Coins. Available only with the Man the Guns DLC enabled. A torpedo cruiser is a type of warship that is armed primarily with torpedoes. HOI4 uses the reliability stat to determine the probability of receiving a critical hit so MTG-X's dazzle camouflage module boosts that stat while also increasing surface visibility as a penalty since any ship donning the camouflage is so conspicuous. This mod makes no changes to vanilla ships or modules. WAFFEL_E-100. Battleships are by far the single strongest ship you can produce in Hearts of. The Heavy Cruiser in Hearts of Iron 4 has the same hull as the Light Cruiser, but has access to heavier weaponry, making it more classified to become a capital ship instead of a screen ship. My little group of four (well in the picture the 5th was just created) light cruisers is decimating the entire US Navy, Royal Navy, and Canadian Navy virtually alone with no airpower. Even then, at any given level of production, you're making 18% more DEs, making about 6 escorts per 5 fleet destroyers. Ships unlocked: Pre-Dreadnought Battleship, SH Battleship II, Coastal Defense Ship, Torpedo Cruiser, Submarine Cruiser I Modules added: Too many to list. "Early Heavy Ship Hull" That's a hull with which you can build battleships or battlecruisers, yes. To: ATLANTIC FLEET. First of all, you need to know that there are five different ships in total in Hoi4, meaning there are 5 different warship classes that you can craft. Heavy cruisers are literally just light cruisers with the "Gun" stat slammed to 5; Yams just gets +2 Gun and +5 armour. Each minister can only fulfill certain roles, and has a trait that indicates his. 10. 4) In multiplayer, if a host wan. Then you assign 10 divisions to this plan. Stay away from Battleships and such as a minor nation, its better to throw loads of Destroyers with Aircover and modern torpedo tech than piss about waiting 3 years for one ship. Rush 1940 sub and snorkel. It was decided on 1 August 1905. Thus why ya really don't overthink on its uses and just put them to work if you feel like it. Split into 3-4 task forces of submarines under an admiral, preferably one with Bold trait and then the Sea Wolf earned trait followed by the Spotter or Superior Tactician earned traits. subs: - The O/P/R class had 8 torpedo tubes and should have two torpedo tubes modules (like other submarine designs with similar armament) - The H and L class boats were smaller and had only 4. 2 Caio Duilio Class battleships that are about 20% finished. Control of the sea can facilitate naval invasions, or prevent the enemy from performing an invasion of their own. Good light cruisers are excellent uses of. First class cruiser (and over 7,500 tons displacement): mountains. My suggestion would just be to add 3 armor to the light cruiser, enough to make destroyers unable to pierce it which would cut destroyers attack in half then they attack light cruisers. Justify on Mexico right from start, meanwhile build around a dozen long range cruiser submarines. Example Convoy Escort Task Force: 5 Anti-Sub Destroyers; 1 Anti-Air Light Cruiser or DestroyerCurrent HOI4 Version Supported: Barbarossa v1. Set to Convoy Raiding in the Bay of Biscay, Iberian Coast, African Coast, Mid-Atlantic Ridge. Sie sind gegen feindliche Kriegsschiffe wehrlos und benötigen in Kriegszeiten Geleitschutz. Multirole boats (aircraft hangars + minelayers + snorchels) I got these things as romania by licence producing my own variant on a. . As others said, 60+ torpedo attack is needed to one-shot kill convoys. Sub detection: 1. when i play soviet, i always declare war on turkey. The cruiser submarine concept originated during the unrestricted submarine warfare campaign of 1917. Went into the list and selected it and went into the designer and added all the modules I wanted onto the ship. 2) Update Forts with new workshop content. For example: 'ae 100 infantry_equipment_1'. CorpseFool • 2 yr. In the end airforce >>>>> all in HOI4. For those of you that dont know about these (not unexpected, pretty niche thing) they were subs with hangers and surface guns. These modules can be unlocked in decision menu. 1936 Battlecruiser. They performed similar functions to surface cruiser pilots such as cruising distant waters, commerce raiding, and scouting for battle fleet positions. Heavy guns shoot at targets in the gun line first, then at screens. Since AI. Eh, while sterling engines are where designed way before diesel style internal combustion engines. It’s a light gunnery cruiser. -90 New Submersible Gun Battery modules for Submarines. Destroyer and Light Cruiser in the same fleet as capital ships will defend the fleet against subs, they won't hunt them down. If this is your thing, check out my. The system also allows you to build a number of ship classes that have been requested a lot, without having to add new subtypes. . It mostly consists of flat, arable land in the far south,. I will make a squadron like that: 20 cruisers submarines with 2 reco planes and. these are all cheats. Carriers get a lot more power ramp than other ships, so they start off comparatively weak, but later on get much stronger. Although typically played as a land power, The Raj has the capability of helping the Allies spot enemy submarines. S. hoi4 battlecruiser design. Incredibly cheap, even compared to a low-tier recon cruiser, and far better spotting per IC. Cruiser Submarines (SSC) (very large, long-range submarines with scout plane. CorpseFool • 4 yr. destroyers also get one shot by p. As a heavy gun carrier, the panzerschiffe is faster with 5x the range (7500, longest in the game, a close second being cruiser submarine with fuel tanks at 7k). Make a naval invasion plan from Hokkaido to Alaska. All three ships of this class served during the Russo. 'War Navy') was the navy of Nazi Germany from 1935 to 1945. 5% for Radar 3 and 10% for Radar 4. 6Politics. A submarine starts out hidden and has a chance to be spotted if it gets too close to an enemy ship (submarines may also be spotted by aircraft). Basically they could sneak along and engage any target of opportunity. Each class has different usage areas, advantages, and disadvantages. Since they are really slow. Historically they held a medium cruiser battery, however in hoi4 they do not. Assign a surface fleet as a strike force to assisted the subs. India Fleet. You make a naval invasion plan with no division assigned and let the game run 70 days. You can put 2 floatplanes and a radar on it. Filling cruiser with "proper" heavy guns (not just a single to classify it as a capital) - is a counter to "light attack heavy cruiser" spam, actually. xoldfashionedx Research Scientist • 5 yr. Screening efficiency [edit. Minelaying. At that point it’s no longer a “recon” cruiser. Only certain nations even get access to cruiser subs, they are one of the 'hidden' techs.